[SC] Pushing

Okay so in another thread I saw a question and tried to find the answer (I am pretty Forum savvy) and could not find anything to define or explain the punishments for "Pushing".

I understand that it is from killing the same person multiple times, and is easily achieved by a person creating 2 accounts on the same server (different companies) and killing the second account multiple times. But short of the obvious CHEAT stated, I also know with the limited numbers in the maps the legitimate player has an issue with being penalized for "Pushing" even though they are just trying to enjoy the game that is given to them.

This being said, questions were brought up dealing with a UFE player, in the lowers flying protection for a newb doing quests and helping them complete them and learn the game. IF this UFE is attacking ships that have attacked this weaker player, and they do not get the message, and continue to attack why would (or does it) this constitute as being "Pushing"? I can understand an enemy in the map killing newbs because they are easy kills being hit for "pushing" as they are taking an easy kill numerous times just because they are there, not a friendly protecting Home Maps and friendly ships. This brings up activities like "Capture the Beacon", I am protecting the Company Beacon and the same player keeps coming to capture it, I kill him every time he comes to grab it, would this be "Pushing" as I am following the practices set forth for the Special Event.

So a thread defining "Pushing" is needed. Also, we need to know actual limits that are in place as this is disputed with, every time it is brought up, in discussion. And then we also need actual penalties issued for violating the "Pushing" limits, as this is classified as "a gray area" when the question is asked "what are the punishments for 'Pushing'?" and no one really seems to know exactly what happens or when.

This is an item that should be added to the FAQ's, "Bible", or House Rules that seem to be tagged to the D O Team's Signatures as being the best source for answers to these questions.

Thank you for the responses and assistance in getting this information out to the newbs so they can be properly informed of D O's position on this matter instead of innuendo's from other players who may or may not know the true answers.

 

One of the best suggestions I have heard in a long time, the DO bible needs a good update.

 

Hi ppl
I looked into this myself too and the following thread is archived but as I understand it is still relevant in part...
http://www.bigpoint.com/darkorbit/board/threads/pushing.46687/#post-366108 posted in 2014

I do understand that the subject is developing as the game moves on and ppl find new ways to 'abuse' the basic principles of the game, which we all started playing at different times during its development... and that with new features ppl will always do this... but we would not be happy if the game sat still would we?... Forum is here to discuss things and I look forward to any new D.O. input, please, on the above Archived Thread... and as the OP has suggested a definition is needed to cover the term 'Pushing' as we find it today...

 

Thank you for the post but that is the simplest form of pushing and seems to be a NORMAL activity as the UFE get tired of not having anything to do and have created noob accounts to try to get some other enjoyment out of the game, currently. But this form of "PUSHING" (giving credits) is in no way shape or form even close to the "PUSHING" from killing players in the game. It was also changed in the sense that they limited the amount of credits that could be given to a player per week and also prevent you from getting the maximum credits until you have been in the clan for a while, this also reduced the players that were clan jumping just to get the clan bank for their own use.

 

And so?...
I agreed with you that a new definition is needed (and even liked your subject) and that the game has/will have moved forward from a post in 2014... but I thought a 'current' so-called definition may be appropriate for comparison... All your points were relevant but please ..

 

sorry about error in reply above...now...i emailed support with a question about pushing. Kara replied that if a player is being killed multiple times, it is the responsibility of the one being killed to A) get help to run off the killer B) do another quest in another map C) table playing for another time when quest can be completed. obviously this does not address the fact that the stronger player may also have a quest to kill enemy players, which can be magnified by the lack of population on the server or people just chatting and not active in maps. This is not so much an answer to your post as it is to acknowledge the flaw of a judgmental event. a pushing ban could be incurred on a player because he plays a certain time every day and thus limiting the available targets. (i.e. 100 kills 38 of one player, 25 of another, 18 of another ) followed by a smattering of random kills...is this pushing? Like many other posts in forum, the problem seems to stem from lack of new players and inability to keep new players. i log on sometimes to 30 or less ppl on site and have kill quests....im i only to kill 3 ppl then log? This is not a viable gaming experience and sure to send some to other games to spend their time....and money. just my opinion.

 

Thank you for sharing the response from SUPPORT, I have seen another post that has stated there is punishments being made for having been found to be "PUSHING" but as this is from the COMMUNITY and not the COMPANY do not know if it is accurate and did not address "What Constitutes Pushing?" specifically, again, a person who is protecting a weak player should not be hit with a punishment if he is protecting his HOME MAPS. On the other hand, a person who is HUNTING and only finds 3 players in the enemy maps does have the issue of HOW does he get a quest done that requires enemy kills in a specified company?

Instead of having a "PUSHING" penalty they should have a KILL limit (a person can only be killed by one player 3 times a day), after this any attempt to target the player is followed by a message "You have exceeded the allowed kills on this player today" thus preventing the "PUSHING" from happening and also protecting all players from being singled out for killing by some bully in the game.

I am sorry if you took offense to my response to your earlier post about the archived posting. I did not mean to imply it was not relevant here. It is a form of "PUSHING" that has been dealt with to a point, as I pointed out, and have not actually heard anyone being punished for this type of activity since their "Tax Payment Revamp". I am sure there are still some people who are using TAX credits to bid to better their ship but still requires the players to use their own credits to get a big jump in strength form the AUCTION.

On the other side of this coin I see there are some "Ideas" requesting the ability to "DONATE" extra equipment to the clan to GIVE to weaker players, which could also be construed as "PUSHING" but again is not the 3 step Penalized "Pushing" I am asking about, but YES should have an OFFICIAL POSTING defining the entire list of POSSIBLE pushes that could be penalized.

 

Hello,

There's a few variations of pushing;
*A user has more than one account and uses those accounts to help and benefit their other accounts. This can be flying them together to kill things, using one ship to kill the other whether for quest or just because[rank], or even credit pushing via clans.

*Two or more users get together and agree to allow one or all parties involved to destroy each others ships, again for quests or whatever other reason they decide to do so.

*A user destroys another in considerable excess, usually in a short span of time. This is what usually raises a question, because there is no set time or amount, it something that has to be reviewed thoroughly and considered. However, this isn't something new, and the old pushing system actually used to penalize users for this as well - usually the debate was they were destroying bot users, some 50 times later or however many it was.

*There are also those who try to be crafty and avoid the the whole numbers thing and there may be a particular, clear, pattern or repeated consistency that makes it clear pushing is occurring, even if over time rather than all the kills being in 5 minutes or something.

Please understand there are limited specifics in these descriptions as these are something that have to be reviewed on a case by case basis, and ultimately, we really aren't trying to give a "how to not get caught" specification listing. Playing the game normally, and sensibly, should alleviate pushing concerns for at least most. & As for those trying to set people up, support's watching those instances too^^

As for updating the DO bible, it is on the team's to-do list, just unfortunately we are a limited people with limited time - and things are always changing. So our team isn't ignoring it, just a matter of when the stars align with everything else going on - or something like that D;

I hope that's of help

Regards,

 

Basically I guess the issue is that we have been told, in chat and in forums that there is a "Pushing system" in place and those players who are defending maps and noobs are concerned of being penalized because we are attacking the same bully repeatedly (because he refuses to learn to leave the noobs alone). In their defense they may be in need of enemy kills for a quest and is why they keep coming back trying to get the kill before we get him, but the concern is that we may be penalized as there is no set rules, and is subject to interpretation, as to whether it is or is not considered "Pushing"?

So, I guess the rumors are to be considered true, that a player protecting another because they are weak/new can be taking a risk of being penalized for "Pushing" and is the reason so many refuse to answer calls for help when needed in the current game, unlike they used to, back when the game had lots of players in it. PvP "Pushing" did not seem to be a problem back then as there were so many people in the maps we never got killed by the same player more than a couple times, unless we really upset someone.

 

I have never seen anyone receiving penalty from this. Let's be honest, 70% from people I know runs multiple accounts and usually they are in same clan. This is done especially in big clans sometimes.

These clans have x,xxx,xxx,xxx credits in their balance and just spam them to their multiple miniaccounts.

 

Although I have never had problems as yet, I am still building my ship to a point where I could be accused in the near future as I will start on my PvP quests in earnest...
As Solid_Eye has said, and HelpMeHelpYou may agree, there must be some interpretation or there will need to be 'draconian Laws' and we all understand this will involve something like an 'auto-ban' for certain behaviour!!

I mentioned in my post, as have others, that what I/we think we needed clarity/definition which I think Solid_Eye has given, at least in that we should self-govern and not abuse either the currently emptier maps nor the argument of the avoidance of 'noobs being helped' using pushing as an argument for not answering a defense call... shooting the same person over and over for no reason is pushing...
Support must be given some leeway to decide if this is contrived or honest and so we are still in need of something to define from the Support point of view and also a recourse for us to discuss a ban with Support with our extenuating circumstance...
Any update to the 'Bible' will always be necessarily flexible as any game changes will encourage new 'work-around' abuse by those who dont like to govern themselves !!

 

Yes, this is true and even seen Clan Leaders who set a tax and then send all the credits to their ship. However, there was a change in the game limiting the amount that could be sent to a ship from the tax bank, (this is dependent on how long they have been in the clan) with a maximum of 250,000,000. The actual information is here;

http://www.bigpoint.com/darkorbit/board/threads/clan-payout-faq.53460/

but a new clan member starts at 5,000,000 and increases 10,000,000 a week to the max of 250,000,000 after 6 months in the clan (unlike under the abused system where the total bank could be sent to one player in one transaction). Credit "PUSHING" is not being seen near as much now (with the AUCTION) with the credits being returned if outbid and seeing the current high bid, over the old TRADE system where you took a chance on whether your bid would be high enough to win the item, because the current bid was not seen and you lost all credits once bid was submitted (those with friends having tons of credits and nothing to spend them on would make test bids and as long as they stayed in the top spot they knew what needed to be bid to win the item) and could have technically been classified as "Pushing" but was never called because the credits were not actually given to anyone except D O, but it was assistance to improve another ship without their wasted effort.

The issue that I have heard of is the player is reported for killing a player several times in a row, taking the killed players story for granted, verify that the kills were multiple by the one player, then the player is punished for "Pushing" without any explanation of what happened before punishment is administered. And if the punishments are as posted by apetown.;

Pushing penalties are 1st ban: -30% exp & hon + 14d ban on all servers | 2nd ban: -30% exp & hon + 30d ban on all servers | 3rd ban: permanent account termination

in another thread then there really needs to be some "Black and White" clarity to this issue. Knowing what is classified as "Pushing" before being punished for an action is a better way than to punish someone and then tell them why they were punished.

As long as it is a JUDGEMENT call there is no fairness in the decision, the files being researched show the number of times a player is killed and the circumstances are contrived by the person making the report. Take this example;

"John Smith (killed player) was attacking "Joe Blow" when "Jane Doe" killed him in the 1-3 map when JS is a VRU player FE+ while JD is PROTECTING JB (a Leonov with credit/free equipment) trying to learn the game and better themselves.

The only thing support can see is the log entries "your ship was destroyed by Jane Doe of MMO" with a date and time stamp and the story John Smith has told to SUPPORT to explain he was killed 15 times, in a row, by Jane Doe for no reason at all, so support looks at the log files of Jane Doe and sees there are several entries of multiple kills on the same player on the same day, so they decide they are obviously using the kills to "PUSH" their account up the ranks so they get penalized for protecting other players, weaker than the ones attacking them, without being able to explain (let alone prove) what is happening. It is not their fault these players return to try to kill the MMO Newbs and as the player being killed is in enemy territory should be acknowledged somewhere so that it is not construed to be "Pushing" when protecting your own HOME maps.

I know if I was looking at the above penalties for protecting a NEW player I would not be doing too much of it, waste ammo to not kill someone who keeps returning for destruction in the face of overwhelming strength is just stupid, unlike the person locked into a certain map to kill certain NPC's for a quest. Hunting parties killing in enemy maps are the ones who need the penalties assigned, if they kill the same player repeatedly. This should be done by D O not by someone making a report to SUPPORT.

To assist with retaining NEW players there needs to be something implemented to prevent these players from being attacked (killed) by the same player more than a set number of times (my opinion is 2) in a FOUR HOUR period (the exception would be if the killed player decided to start an attack on the killer) thus preventing the need for the "Pushing" system to even be in place, at least for the PvP fights. (Yes a person with 2 accounts on a single server in different companies still needs to be penalized if they are killing each other because they have access to 2 browsers and can have both active at the same time) but this scenario needs to be prevented before it gets started. I know if I have been killed 3 times in the space of an hour I will quit the game for the day as it is not worth my time to try doing what I am doing with this activity in the maps I have to be in for the quests I am doing.

 

So i think is good tema,seams with this DO protect bot players.
Mean many time i kill same player in pvp whu collect boxes and after he die repair on port so i kill him 10 times and leave bcs i afraid to be punished for pushing.Also after few time pop him i got nothing for kill,is stupid bcs they continue to collect again over night or so.Atleast leave us to destroy them drones(now is impossible)bcs they all have drone repair cpu and can die many time,if we kill boters to lose drones we get ban and they still collect boxes.STUPID!!!

 

I really doubt it would be possible to be falsely accused of pushing because you were protecting noobs. In the past I have killed the same person way more than 20 times in a 4 or 5 hr period of time and never been accused of pushing. We used to pop the drones off of afk players daily from about 2 am-6 am server time, getting as many as 200 kills in 4 hrs, most people that are accused of pushing are pushing.

With the new anti grief policy killing a person gives less rewards after 5 pops. After 10 pops I believe the person is worth 0 to kill so just a waste of ammo.

 

Instead of making punishment for doing this, I would think it would be a good time to send the CAPTCHA to the player to ask if they are actually playing and if ignored they are suspended (bot protection) until it is answered, if not answered within 30 minutes send an email that the account has been found to be guilty of "botting AFK" and has received a 14 day suspension to be reinstated with a request to support. This would have a 3 strike rule, second offense is 30 day suspend, and 3rd you lose the account permanently.

This is the issue, every time this is brought up it is "I believe" we don't have any firm "this is" what happens and as posted in message #12 if these penalties are being enforced for killing people as "Pushing" then this needs some real clear information given. I can agree with the ZERO rewards for killing more than 10 times but for the newbs, actually playing the game, there needs to be something to prevent the killing more than 3 times by the same player/outfit/group (they deserve to be able to enjoy the game also), have a pop up window that asks "Do you desires protection from kills?" after the second kill, YES will give another pop up telling how the protection works, NO will return to normal mode until they log out and then resets the kill counter. The protection would remain in affect until the player logs out and would only apply to the aforementioned group but would automatically kick in on every other hunting group as they got 3 kills. Thus, a player can still be killed 1000's of times (if he has really bad luck) but only 3 times to the same hunting person/party.

 

I think to say that it is as simple as "defend player, banned for pushing" is assuming that this is not quite a swell measure of the situation. I don't think it's that simple, and I think as mentioned above, there are other factors in play with this.

But on another note, to clear up a few points since...

I really can't go into details, but the short answer is yes, people have gotten a naught nudge for this in the past. Although, there is a different between your normal clan of however many people and putting credits into it and that being funneled to a noob ship (even if it's a member's own), and someone who's made however many ships, and are funneling credits from all of those to one ship.

Pushing isn't black and white, otherwise it would be as simple as "you killed X 10 times, ran out of rewards and killed again, banned now". There are multiple things looked for, and again, we really aren't just trying to tell people how above & beyond to go to hide it.

Just because someone complains to support that pushing has occurred does not automatically mean a ban is going to take place. Support has to look into everything before any action can be taken, and sometimes there just isn't enough evidence to conclusively say what's been claimed did in fact happen. Support isn't rushing to just ban everyone out, and they aren't banning people when the pieces don't fall together.

This has nothing to do with bots or "protecting" them. &really, destroying them constantly is only hindering being able to get rid of them. If the bot doesn't get to bot then how can the system get the evidence it needs to shut it down for botting?

DarkOrbit's already been down this road, CAPTCHA for botting, and staging bot bans both. Not only did there used to be a three stage system for bots, but when they moved to the latest punishment they had a temporary "stage one" phase to try bringing players back to playing legitimately before their accounts were terminated. The community was not amused by the whole bot situation years ago, and DarkOrbit's made it clear that cheating won't be tolerated. So once the account is caught and the evidence is there to support the ban, the account is banned, end of. Those players have had plenty of chances over the years, and those chances ran out.

Regards,

 

Support has already proven they dont consider all possibilities, and love to give snide remarks of "your banned because its your fault"
and yes just killing a player 11 times in 1 day does equal a ban unless support really is allowed to make up their own rules or ideas of how the game works.And banning someone is as simple as 1`s and 0`s where it doesn`t matter how you acquire someones kill or they acquire yours.If your logbook shows you killed this player x amount of times after they cry to support when they are the ones starting the fight...you both get 14 day ban and removal of 30% ep and honor.

So whether there was a bug with lock, or this guy was running from 20 ships finds you and to avoid getting their kill you slowmine or ice rocket them and you get the kill because they insta popped em you still get banned so idk why Admins are acting like there is alot of detail to look at when clearly all the detail in my case was ignored.And on top of that DO clears your logbook history so you cant even begin to review if what they found was even true.(And 14 days of inactivity does not clear your logbook ive got other accounts where ive left em for a month and they still had logs.)Call me paranoid but I don`t trust people.

Every other aspect of the game seems to be normal and have the proper attention except for this whole pushing thing.