[UI] Are ships created by design or by chance? - Part one

Hello pilots of this universe!

My name is Kyber and I'm here to bring up some incongruity I found in game regarding ships.
It is not my wont to complain and I have high hopes for the thread to be taken as feedback.
Let's get started then!

TL;DR Drones(drone formations) and P.E.T. should NOT be avaible to use while Speed Boost ability is active on Tartarus.

Tartarus, one of my favorite of the new ships.
First I have to say it's very tricky to find a solution to it and I don't know if and how devs are going to solve it. It will be a challenge for sure but I'll share my idea in regard of the design-issue behind the ship with a humble solution.

With reference to the pre-release on the Twitch stream the ship was presented as a heavy-battlecruiser, slow, with one of the abilities that allow you to reach very high speed with a compromise of reduced damage output. The ability is Speed Boost.

How does the spacecraft gain that speed though?
It is shown the drones leave their position and attach to the back of the ship. By using their energy the little shits (for lack of better words ) push hard enough to give you the bonus speed. Same happens with P.E.T.. And I like it. It's very well thought and designed in my opinion. It brought something new to the game, quite the opposite of what we were used to have: speed-gen tecnologies implemented inside the ship like Venom's Afterburner or Citadel's Travel.

By the way you can see these cool movements and stuff on 3D version and only if you have the complete set (Chimera P.E.T. and Phantom).

Finally we reached the point where you can see the inconsistency while the ability is active:
- drones can still be used. Infact drone formations are fully functional. (multitasking drones?)
- P.E.T. is avaible to use, same as drones. (multitasking pet? )
Now as you can imagine it is very challenging to balance it in a game where Formations and P.E.T. play a crucial part in terms of battle-strategy, skills and whatnot.

My solution?
At this moment, while the ability is on, we have a slightly damage reduction in output. Since the ship is moving very fast I would instead reduce the laser-accuracy, makes sense right? (numbers you ask? Well these things need to be tested and tested before by the team and then by us).
However damage is increased How much? Let's say something like the damage P.E.T. would do in guard position. Along with that your P.E.T.'s shield&health are steeply added to the ship. Having low accuracy means low damage output so I would add more rocket damage to the ship(rocket launchers). Combined with its second ability we fix the missing damage from lasers.

The idea here is to have a tank ship-type chasing you for the kill with a high damage output but sufficent accuracy on lasers to hit once in a while + the high rocket damage. On the opposite scenario you are the hunted and you can benefit from P.E.T. HP/SHD bonus on the escape.
The loss in both cases is of course the fact you can't use drone formations and P.E.T. while Speed Boost is active.

Just a heads up, as of the current version the ability works even if you have less than 10 drones. Tartarus should gain bonus speed equal to the power obtained from each drones. We assume half the bonus speed comes from the P.E.T. and half from drones (5% each drone); so having 8 drones+P.E.T. gives you 90% bonus speed.
(as a side note: woulnd't be cool to have 666 speed on ->Tartarus<-? I know, I know it will be broken but still cool haha).

To clarify my point of view I would make Drones&P.E.T. non-usable during Speed Boost as the ship was initially designed that way and start from there to get to a solution.

This is my modest solution, can work or maybe not, but it can be expanded or a completely different approach can take place but the issue remains. Probably someone will not be able to understand or just likes the simplicity of things. If I were to invite a friend to play the game he would ask how the ship works, how its abilities work and so on and if something doesn't make sense for me that I play the game he would argue the reliability of those who are creating this game.

Solution based on community feedback (work in progress)
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Thank you very much for reading all of this!
- if someone can forward the thread link to the developers aswell, please, that would be awesome and...have a nice day!

P.S.: I hope everyone understands my poor english and feel free to correct me when I get it wrong.

 

So listen... I respect that the Tartarus is your favorite ship; but the bias you have for it in your post is overwhelming.

You are suggesting the Tartarus be given this unique attention, and you want developers to bend over backwards to redesign this ship in such a complex way that no other ship has ever been designed like before. Not likely this idea will be taken seriously.

Good luck.

 

(useless post)

I was all ears but than you brought nothing to the table. Tartarus is one of my favourite new ships as a stated. There are many others I like and use regularly depending on the situation. This is just something about me I added on the text and has nothing to do with the actual design-issue I was talking about.

You don't need to respect what I like but rather my idea. And bring out yours possibly if you want a sane discussion!
I understand it's hard to elaborate so much information at once but I don't care. I'm not a braindead that accepts everything they craft like many users do as I can see.

If something doesn't fit like this particular case I bring it up and I don't have to size or bend my ideas because supposedly it's a hard work for developers to do. I'm refering to some "ideas" that circulate on forums like reduce or increase that 10% to 5% sometimes. Those doesn't have enough quantity nor quality to open a single thread. There are general speaking corners where they belong and honestly it's more of a balance talk that Team and Community chit-chat about.

This time I talked about this ship next will be something else. Of course it has to be given a unique attention, and not because I like it but because we are talking about a specific situation otherwise we talk general whihc is not productive. (btw can you see anywhere where I ask for the the ship to be Overpowered so I can smash my oppenents?)

Yours was a vile attempt to disqualify my idea without questioning which is bad if you want to have that sane discussion.

For the record, if as you say it's a matter of complexity developers can't do and most likely wont take me seriously, I say it's also very hard for the me and any customer to take this Company seriously. The wallets will stay closed.

But please don't substitute the devs, you are not part of the team, you don't know if they can or cannot deliver.

And the ship was actually designed like that, look at the Twitch stream. It's not an obbligation for them to implement what I proposed here and now. But I have high hope they will find a solution in future (with the client version) and that's why this thread, to help them with my feedback which is godlike! (I'm kidding )


P.S.: Everyone can use what is written here and on every thread I create, with or without refence. Make these ideas yours if you like them, spread them and copy-pasta, discuss and criticize them, they are opensource (whatever that means in this context ahaha). Really! Free use, I wont copyright strike you .

 

I like this idea, as it brings up something that was totally overlooked by.....everybody. If the drones (and pet) are put away, why should anyone benefit from having them as they super-zip around? Your in speed mode? Why should you get the benefits of drill, ring, wheel, or even my personal favorite Bat. Personally I don't see why you should have the benefit of the added shields/lasers either. Don't ask about any extra's that may have been equipped on them as shields/lasers will be enough of a chore for dev's to figure out at this point. With all the newer content that has came out since then, I am sure this issue was never on the issue list. I like that this has been brought up. It gives thought to the things that are not considered with the new content. Most Tart users stay in speed mode so why should there not be a balance added to the mix?

 

1) No, I told you why your idea isn't the best--let me put this in a simpler argument form so you can understand easier . . .

If an idea is too radical, then game developers will not implement it. Your idea to add PET shields/HP/damage and disable drone formations is too radical of an idea. Therefore, Bigpoint will not take implement your idea.​

Now if you wanted, you could have defended yourself by suggesting that your idea is not that radical; by citing other extremely "out there" features in Dark Orbit. What comes to mind is the Lightning's afterburner ability that literally negates slow mines, infection, DCRs, and Ice Rockets. However you didn't.​

2) No, nothing in my earlier comment pointed to the inability of developers to implement your idea--they might be able to do it or they might not, I don't care either way--all I said is that it would be more work for them to do.

Please don't twist my words, I had only made a three sentence comment, it's not hard to understand,​

Good luck​

 

Far more simple solution;
Speed Boost - 30% Speed Bonus - 25% Laser damage reduction.
Rapid Fire - Doesn't need to be touched as both abilities can't be used at once.

 

What you wrote I can read and understand very well.
When you start your post by accusing someone of bias and then labeling the idea as a radical one,
that tells enough of what kind of person you are.

"Not likely this idea will be taken seriously"
Really? You say that.
"Bigpoint will not take implement your idea" (I think you wanted to write 'will not take seriously', again...)
They don't have to implement mine. Seems you didn't read the whole thread.
"If an idea is too radical, then game developers will not implement it"
...and how do you know they will not implement it? You are the one considering the idea radical.

The question comes spontaneous, is he working for Bigpoint?
You are not the Gatekeaper to determine if an idea is valid or not, if it can be taken seriously or not. Are you?
And you are not part of the team either so stop speaking on behalf of devs.

From your point of view devs wont implement it because the idea is "too radical", meaning more work to do and accordingly they will not take it seriously. (Ah, these lazy devs! )
Your assumption is wrong. We had have a lot of drastic changes in the past and we will keep having them you like it or not. The game is old, it needs a lot of reworks and it's not going to change by proposing light ideas.
But I'm all ears to hear your best idea to this issue, instead of just talking meaningless .

Oh wow, I should defend myself now . Maybe you should play the game more and see that most part of what I suggested is already implemented in game. I don't think any idea is "too radical". It's just an idea.

Out of curiosity: so you consider Afterburner to be a radical feature...Ahahah! Even the old SuperMario had more "radical" features in it.
For me it's not. On the other hand, as I stated on my post, Speed Boost would've been if implemented correctly.

And this is the whole point of this thread but you seem to miss it either by choice or cause it was too hard to understand for you.
I knew someone would have not understand and that's fine. I brought up the issue and then the solution(my idea). But it is not your case; the way you approached the discussion was a vile attempt to discredit the idea and put it on the trash bin.

Obviously you are not here to contribute to the cause otherwise we would've hear your solution to the issue by now.
If you don't aknowledge the design-issue, still fine. Say it with few words but leave the development part to those who work on it.

Go do your shilling somewhere else.

Are you considering P.E.T and drones formation disabled?
If yes, it would be used just as an escape. But it will be an easy target with that low speed while Speed boost is not activated. It's not like Cidatel even if it was designed as a battlecruiser.

Consideration:
Everyone flies whith Speed Boost activated so it's useless to have it as an ability. They could very well make the speed addition to the ship whithout needing an active ability.
Now It's basically a Pusat with lower damage and more tankiness (hit point/shield).

If not, doesn't solve the issue. (If you agree that the ship is made by chance and not by design)

You can use Rapid Fire while in Speed Boost.

I'm glad there is someone who got my point.
I will edit the original post so it will be easy for devs to just read the first part.
I would like to be anonymous as I don't want to take any credits. It should be a community effort as a whole to achieve something by helping the devs, not just bringing up the problems but also trying to solve them. There are a lot of cases where the community plasmed new types of games, an example: MOBA.
But I can already see this community is not cohesive, or at least here on forum. Everyone seems to like to cry a lot and be judges.
You are the only one engaging on the discussion. I would consider you a friend. Do you agree?

So I changed some parts:

Instead of increasing HP/SHD based on P.E.T.'s Health/Shield you gain a set percentuage: let's say +10% health of your ship, 20% shield of your ship. The same technology used by Sacrificial Flame Gear can be used here.
Or do you still think it's better to remove the entry?
Same thing with Damage increase; a set percentuage: let's say 10%.
Or we remove the whole part where the P.E.T. gives anything.
(remember that this way it is just the idea behind that tells P.E.T. is giving to the ship these bonuses but they are actually implemented on the ship as a bonus by calculating Ship's HP/SHD, nothing to do with P.E.T. So generally speaking the bonus is: +damage, +health and +shield)

What do you think about this one. An annecessary feature? Or can be improved/unimprove?

Suggestions. Speedboost can be used:
-only if you have 10 drones (it will leave noobs without it)
-only if you have 8 drones (similar to the formation with the 6 drones restrictions)
-only if you use even number of drones (the crazy idea behind it is that with odd numbers of drones the ship would do a weird path as one side pushes more)
-other ideas
I would go with the 8 drones limitation and remove all the %
What about P.E.T. Would you need it to use the ability or no?
I would say yes as at this point of the game everyone would have a P.E.T.
So overall you can use the ability if you have 8 or more drones and P.E.T.

Before answering, consider this, even though you already got it (P.E.T.&Drones are disabled):
How would you balance the ship in a reasonable way to not make it OP but neither useless?
What role would Tartarus have in the game, is it a hit and run Starfighter like Pusat, is it a heavy-battlecruiser with defensive capability like Citadel? What would it be?
Sorry, I didn't ask. First of all, do you like to hop in on the discussion?

As you can immage I can't garantee any of this will be implemented. They could very well care less for this thread.
And I hope devs wont get angry as we are doing the little designers here. Your job is safe
This is how I like to give the feedback. Deal with it.

 

"You can use Rapid Fire while in Speed Boost."

I don't believe any ship should be able to use 2 abilities at once (except the Aegis and Claw) but if this is the case, then it still doesn't need to be changed.

Your issue seems to be the Tart is too powerful when using speed boost due to drone and pet damage applied. As i said the easy fix is to reduce the overall damage output of "speed Boost".
Change the 5% reduction to 25%, problem solved - If you want to use "speed boost" to run down a faster ship, you lose 25% of your firepower.
A very simple solution for Devs to do, if they choose.

 

That was partial of my initial idea to compensate on the inability to use Drone Formation and P.E.T.
In the current state Tartarus doesn't benefit any additional damage from P.E.T. and/or drones while Speed Boost is active.

I agree that Speed abilities should only be used to escape or catch players.

 

I'm not so sure about that, a couple of days ago i was hunting in 4-X maps in my Pusat, I ended up in a fight with a Tart that while chasing me was hitting for well over 100K. If somehow the Tart can hit for over 100K with just 14 lasers (no drone or pet damage applied) and a 5% damage reduction - I want one!!

 

Simply too restrictive. Addition of a 'ship specific' element that newer or existing players may not find out till much later. Annoying to really deal with, even though I don't use the Tartarus myself.

Plus, the idea of adding speed as you mentioned is just too complex to add in. For one ship, sure, easy enough. But then players will call for "tiny, little" modifications, buffs, nerfs and such for other or new ships. No point for this. Tartarus is still a good enough ship to runaway and farm/PvP in.

On top of that, the drones and PET being put away is purely cosmetic. Doesn't happen unless you have ALL the designs for both the ship and drones that add together into a pack. No designs, no animation.

 

Are you refering to the 666 speed? XD was more of a personal thinking based on the name of the ship, that's why inside brackets. It would be totally broken. As you said if that changes happen then the whole speed system have to be re-considered. Defenitly not a good idea.
It was not that the issue nor the solution . The speed is fine as long as it fits in the ship role, the balance will come eventually if it doesn't fit. Not the case here, and it was already changed from 40% to 30%. I don't want to talk about speed balance. Take it more as of a joke. I'll remove it or put it on spoiler if that disctracts you from the real issue
Let's talk about it.

No it's not. Do you believe anything they tell you.
You also need Chimera not just drones by the way, I already stated that. And those are the cosmetics (P.E.T. Chimera & Phantoms), not the ship or the way it is designed, but anyways.

To put it on perspective, you can't say that the bubble around you if you have Shield Engineering is cosmetic. It gives you a useful information in game. It's there to tell a story not just because it's cool to have lights and shadows. Yes you could change it with cosmetics to make it more fancy but it still needs to keep its purpose, telling you what is going on.
If you can't distinguish the difference here I can't help.
Same with any other Skill tree effects rather than ship abilities. Take for example Singularity: if they add some green little robots around your ship while you are under it's effect instead of the glowing orange effect, because why not, it's a cool "cosmetic", wouldn't that be misleading. Are you fine with this concept, with this way of thinking?

Say you encounter a Tartarus flying fast, with his drones and P.E.T. on its back, and still being able to use drone formations or pet...like how many P.E.T.s do you have? 2? 20 drones? Does it make sense to you? Can you see the inconsistency?
I think the ability to reflect on things is needed to see this issue and a lot of players seems to take stuff as they come from the factory without questioning.
The ship was designed that way, just devs didn't bother to implement correctly all the features. They went with a -5% damage reduction instead. I don't know the reason but I brought up the issue.
I hope I cleared up my position and I totally disagree with you on this one.

Thank you for joining in on the discussion.

 

Green: Yes, you are right about that. For experienced players, it's a clear sign that the user has 25% more shields. But then again, who wouldn't? It's one of the skills every player just has to have.

Yellow: Good point there. Would indeed be very misleading. Unless you're blind, you wouldn't be able to tell it's hurting you.

Red: Now one main issue. In order to even see the animation, you need Drones for other players (and yourself) turned on, otherwise it's just not visible. Plus, not everyone plays in 3D (assuming the animation is only available in the 3D).

Even besides all that: Tartarus is weak. Goliath/Cyborg/Surgeon vs Tartarus -> Tartarus gets wiped out of existence.
As far as I've seen, people use the Tartarus to run away, or attempt hit & runs, which even then it's terrible at.

I'm only against this idea just because of how out-of-wack this ship would be once applied, despite making it easier for me to hunt and kill for quests.

 

If they decide to implement the change they have to add the visibility. We have a good example with Drone formations.
Doesn't matter if you chose 3D, 2D, Drones visibels or not, you still have the option to see what drone formation your oppenent is using.
You are not left without that information, and that's right, since you have the option to chose on settings you also need to have those important info implemented on all versions of the game.
3D is more fancy with animations. It's not a good idea to let the other options uncompleted though. If you can't add animations in 2D you should find a way to give those information out.
That's not really a big issue, but more of a negligence from devs. It can be solved fast.
In this case, a disabled icon for drones with a red X if you don't have Drones visible. Otherwise with drone visible just remove the drones from screen. We also carry a P.E.T. that spawns out of nowhere!
But you can even adjust that, improve more by adding those little Holograms you can see on the back of Tartarus on Shop. And remove the animation for those who does't have the full set (in 3D).
So this is just an example.

Back to the issue. Yes, the ship will be even more useless than it is now by deactivating Drones&P.E.T. Tartarus doens't have a proper role in game, it's not a tank, not a healer, not a starfighter (as it is Pusat). It needs a complete rework. We agree on this.
But you can't solve a problem by ignoring it. And that's why of this damn thread. I wanted to have a discussion on how to solve it, to also ease the devs jobs. More ideas we have, more options there are to look into and find a good answer.
But I can see they are not coming any time soon. I feel like I'm talking to my echo inside an empty room.
I might as well close it and let devs solve the problem, if they'll ever ackowledge it.

It's been since the lunch of Darkorbit Reloaded that a lot of new features/items are not implemented properly. A lot of them seem to be there just because they are cool or a testing ground to see if players like them or no, without thinking much of the impact they can have on the other existing features. There was a global vision before. (e.g. ships were all the right size, now we have P.E.T.s that are bigger than some ships). Something doesn't feel right to me and I don't know what it is but I'm not immersed anymore like before.
You want to add animation, cool. Implement it correctly, don't limit it to one type of cosmetics when that is part of how ships works. Otherwise make a standard appearence for each ship (including P.E.T. & Drones, like a pack) you get when you buy the ship and from there create new cosmetics packs. Same concept with animations. For example 3D drone formations have their cool movement and it's not because of a cosmetic we are able to see them in action but because that's the look in 3D, it's not affecting the purpose of the formation.
The reason Tartarus has an animation activable with cosmetics was to incentivize players to buy those cosmetics. Which is a wrong thinking if that's the way the spacecraft works.

 

Moderators can close the thread, please.
Thank you to the partecipants.
Due to the low activity on forum, particularly on the type of problems this thread brings up I wont do the other parts.

 

Closing as requested.